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python+zope++:: In your own words...
Posted at 23.Jun,2005 10:05  Comments 10 / Trackbacks 0 / Like this post!
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How would you describe zope? In your own words, that is. Forget the zope book definition, or any other definition.

Is zope a web framework first and a web app server second? Or is it really a web application framework? or what?

Me? I'd say zope is more a web app framework, although it can be used in non-web environment. Zope gives many building blocks that can be used to build a web app; fine grained security and many products to start with.

Zope may be easy initially, but the learning curve shoots up after some time. This is usually faced by users who have only worked with cgis (perl, php, asp, etc). I think because it's different; building a few pages and building a web app, that is.

But if we persevere and got pass the steep learning curve (which is now less compared to the 90s since we have books and sites that help), we'll have that Zen moment and love that thing that is Zope.

So, what say you?

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Re: In your own words...

I tell people who don't even know what python is that Zope is: a framework to build web applications on.
(I'm not saying that's God's truth; i'm just answering your question)

Peter Bengtsson  at 06.Jul,2005 22:41
Re: In your own words...

zope is a different entity to different people. it's like who's that x girl (the shapeshifter in x men?)

i used to see it as a simple cms, where i can manage web sites. then i saw zclass, it's more of a pointy clicky web app server. later, i learned python and python product and that makes zope a powerful web app. then there's cmf and plone/cps/silva. it's a powerful CMS

i can't imagine what i'll see with five/zope3.

kedai  at 07.Jul,2005 01:16
Re: In your own words...

What most stands out about zope is the ZODB persistence layer - like Smalltalk, but Python and focused on the Web?

Laurence Rowe  at 07.Jul,2005 20:53
Re: In your own words...

I have no real experience with smalltalk, but I can vouch for ZODB. But there are those who use it without zope or the web.

Now that you mentioned it, we can add one more thing: ZEO. That'd scale a loaded site easily. What do others (php, asp, jsp, perl, etc) have that can scale loaded site easily?

iirc, ZEO used to cost US25k in 1999, and I was *really* glad DC/zope corp opensourced ZEO.

kedai  at 07.Jul,2005 23:43
It's a vessel

Zope reminds me of a pirate ship.

I see it's logo as the Jolly Roger of skull and crossed bones.

Crossed Bones represent version two of Python
The three components represent Zope III.

daopig  at 09.Jul,2005 00:06
Re: In your own words...


that's an interesting way to look at it!

kedai  at 09.Jul,2005 10:29
Like a ... CMS

But not really like an application server.

For that, I still prefer the original Medusa.

Acquisition, threads "rendez-vous" and ZODB are very effective for a CMS. They are a lot less desirable when building high performance web application servers.

Turning Zope into a "real" application server (the kind of which you would eventually run on a Linux for OS/390) is possible but would take more work than directly developping your own from a Medusa core (exactly like Zope networking core itself).

As a web plateform, the strategic problem of Zope is that it is too marginal and can't compete with .NET or J2EE for business application development. Zope's strength is the large community of developpers, the vast pool of free source code they produce and a "ready-made" CMS application. But Zope is not (yet?) a universal web development platform for Python.

Keeping acquisition poses nasty security problems and the more Zope tries to resemble J2EE or .NET, the less simple and appealing it becomes for a large number of its developpers.

I don't say that Zope is a dead-end. It's a very rich and productive CMS and Intranet development environnement. Yet, I'm not convinced that as a Python application server its development heads in the right direction.

Laurent Szyster  at 10.Jul,2005 07:23
Re: In your own words...

what is "high performance web application servers"?

now we need to come with this in our own words :))

does boston.com qualify as one? or is it more of a customized CMS? also, there are major apps done with zope, one that comes to mind is erp5.org

what j2ee and .net app server that fits "high performance web application servers"?

kedai  at 10.Jul,2005 11:21
Re: In your own words...

I have seen some good Zope-powered sites, once it gets on to the IBM iSeries, I expect to see quite a few more. The 'problem' with Zope is that it takes us back to the old days of productive IT, you know when you had passionate and professional developers developing innovative solutions to problems.

IT has gone the way of boy-band pop music at the moment, so all this is completely idealistic future speculation that the pro's can have their jobs back. Of course there would be no music industry without a few artists and in the future there will be no IT industry without a serious Python/Zope presence. (was that persuasive? ;)

jorjun  at 13.Jul,2005 00:04
Re: In your own words...

A gigantic, overly complicated object publishing framework.

C. Rebert  at 14.Jul,2005 14:21
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